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Re: Now it's died down

Post by bayman on Sun Sep 30, 2018 7:50 pm

He’s “Not playing” tram boy
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Re: Now it's died down

Post by mickyj on Sun Sep 30, 2018 8:05 pm

Tram boy wrote:
mickyj wrote:
rocket_rooster wrote:If Eagles get compensation can North get compensation for 2012 when North finished third and both the top two teams, Norwood and West were fined for breaches of the salary cap.
Furthermore does North get compensation for 2013 when it finished second and top team Norwood was fined and had recruiting restrictions placed upon it.

Beats me did they have 19 men on the field as well

Did he say they did ? They cheated for a year . Your rabble lost another finals game and your bleeding about 3 mins.  Only the Eagles could have lost that game . Last one out turn the lights off .

No he didn't I did
You seem to keep bringing up complaining about 3 minutes not me .
Excluding me asking did they have 19 on the field
You ask about Twitter then demand to know exactly what the CEO said . I don't want a legal issue for talking footy.  Seems to me you are from another footy forum trying to stir up issues on hete.
Honestly your not worth the effort .
You don't believe me or understand me stiff.
Do what I did join up forums Facebook SANFL pages or even Twitter .
You could learn stuff.

Why give you more info
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Re: Now it's died down

Post by bayman on Sun Sep 30, 2018 8:31 pm

Tram boy wrote:
bayman wrote:He’s “Not playing” tram boy

Well he is but he is alone. lol

Yep, well put Smile
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Re: Now it's died down

Post by rocket_rooster on Sun Sep 30, 2018 9:18 pm

I quit this forum a couple of weeks ago because you can't ask a sensible question without being ridiculed. I ask another sensible and I think valid question where at least one team was found to be cheating a few years ago compared to North who Justice Michael David QC said definitely didn't cheat. Instead of a sensible answer I just get stupid comments. I give up. That is the last you will see of me on this or any other forum.
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Re: Now it's died down

Post by bayman on Sun Sep 30, 2018 9:31 pm

rocket_rooster wrote:I quit this forum a couple of weeks ago because you can't ask a sensible question without being ridiculed. I ask another sensible and I think valid question where at least one team was found to be cheating a few years ago compared to North who Justice Michael David QC said definitely didn't cheat. Instead of a sensible answer I just get stupid comments. I give up. That is the last you will see of me on this or any other forum.

I don’t blame you, I gave up for a while & was asked to come back so I did but the odd poster on here posts like they’re in the school yard along with no understanding of the whole competition & have the mentality that their particular team can do no wrong & with the rest have no understanding of them at all, you know there the ones that have no idea who the opposition players are & yell at them using their numbers & not names

Btw, very valid questions rr
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Re: Now it's died down

Post by mickyj on Mon Oct 01, 2018 9:23 am

rocket_rooster wrote:I quit this forum a couple of weeks ago because you can't ask a sensible question without being ridiculed. I ask another sensible and I think valid question where at least one team was found to be cheating a few years ago compared to North who Justice Michael David QC said definitely didn't cheat. Instead of a sensible answer I just get stupid comments. I give up. That is the last you will see of me on this or any other forum.

Well I can't honestly answer the question.
All I know re an answer.
Those who cheated the salary Cap were delt with . Iirc they were limited the amount of money they could spend.
North being innocent of the 19 th man are you sure they were innocent.
Iirc North fined $10'000
Iirc North to lose four points or two games in 2019.
Those two minor infringement charges don't mean North are innocent .

As I stated all along I was not looking to fight with North . Not looking to drag the 19 th man up over and over . That's been done to death on Facebook sanfl pages .
My post was just to ask what the compensation that the sanfl mentioned on channel 7 news.
That's all
If North fans get upset I do apologise but it's not meant to do that .
Tram boy whoever you are I am not interested in taking the bait go off and find another poster .


Last edited by mickyj on Mon Oct 01, 2018 9:56 am; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Now it's died down

Post by Admin on Mon Oct 01, 2018 9:45 am

Tram Boy, you have been given many chances. You have wasted them all. You continue to alienate good posters with your constant personal abuse and confrontational style.

You are now permanently banned under any or all of the aliases you have used.

Time to seek help.
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Re: Now it's died down

Post by Admin on Mon Oct 01, 2018 9:53 am

A reminder to other posters.

We're talking about footy.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion.

Personal posts about other posters will not be allowed and will be deleted.

Please take notice.
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Re: Now it's died down

Post by whybother on Mon Oct 01, 2018 1:51 pm

This is my first post in this forum. I think that there is one part in this incident that has been overlooked. How did NA know to remove one player from the field? Was it just part of their normal rotations, in which case, bad luck Eagles. However I heard on the rumor mill that the interchange stewards/Champion Data had a role in this by alerting NA to the 19th man. Nowhere in the rules does it say that game-day agents of the SANFL can take an active part in proceedings. If NA were given a partisan "heads up", then that negated the ability of the Eagle captain(s) to call for a player count. This is why I believe that in the calm time after the dust has settled, the SANFL should conduct a complete and public investigation of the whole incident. The SANFL can't sensibly change the rules to prevent this type of thing happening again if they don't know exactly what went on this time. Only when that is known can "compensation", if any, can be determined. All clubs should be concerned that this is done appropriately, as next time it could be any one of them who gets the rough end of the stick.
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Re: Now it's died down

Post by columbo on Mon Oct 01, 2018 2:41 pm

hybother wrote:This is my first post in this forum. I think that there is one part in this incident that has been overlooked. How did NA know to remove one player from the field? Was it just part of their normal rotations, in which case, bad luck Eagles. However I heard on the rumor mill that the interchange stewards/Champion Data had a role in this by alerting NA to the 19th man. Nowhere in the rules does it say that game-day agents of the SANFL can take an active part in proceedings. If NA were given a partisan "heads up", then that negated the ability of the Eagle captain(s) to call for a player count. This is why I believe that in the calm time after the dust has settled, the SANFL should conduct a complete and public investigation of the whole incident. The SANFL can't sensibly change the rules to prevent this type of thing happening again if they don't know exactly what went on this time. Only when that is known can "compensation", if any, can be determined. All clubs should be concerned that this is done appropriately, as next time it could be any one of them who gets the rough end of the stick.

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Re: Now it's died down

Post by mickyj on Mon Oct 01, 2018 2:44 pm

hybother wrote:This is my first post in this forum. I think that there is one part in this incident that has been overlooked. How did NA know to remove one player from the field? Was it just part of their normal rotations, in which case, bad luck Eagles. However I heard on the rumor mill that the interchange stewards/Champion Data had a role in this by alerting NA to the 19th man. Nowhere in the rules does it say that game-day agents of the SANFL can take an active part in proceedings. If NA were given a partisan "heads up", then that negated the ability of the Eagle captain(s) to call for a player count. This is why I believe that in the calm time after the dust has settled, the SANFL should conduct a complete and public investigation of the whole incident. The SANFL can't sensibly change the rules to prevent this type of thing happening again if they don't know exactly what went on this time. Only when that is known can "compensation", if any, can be determined. All clubs should be concerned that this is done appropriately, as next time it could be any one of them who gets the rough end of the stick.

Very good post
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Re: Now it's died down

Post by goddy11 on Mon Oct 01, 2018 3:42 pm

hybother wrote:This is my first post in this forum. I think that there is one part in this incident that has been overlooked. How did NA know to remove one player from the field? Was it just part of their normal rotations, in which case, bad luck Eagles. However I heard on the rumor mill that the interchange stewards/Champion Data had a role in this by alerting NA to the 19th man. Nowhere in the rules does it say that game-day agents of the SANFL can take an active part in proceedings. If NA were given a partisan "heads up", then that negated the ability of the Eagle captain(s) to call for a player count. This is why I believe that in the calm time after the dust has settled, the SANFL should conduct a complete and public investigation of the whole incident. The SANFL can't sensibly change the rules to prevent this type of thing happening again if they don't know exactly what went on this time. Only when that is known can "compensation", if any, can be determined. All clubs should be concerned that this is done appropriately, as next time it could be any one of them who gets the rough end of the stick.
For a first post great. What you suggest has to happen but we are talking John Olsen and the SANFL. I wa overseas at the time(only returned Friday) but followed via internet and radio. I still can not understand how you appoint an independent umpire ( I believe he done a great job with his hands tied) but not give him the ability to make a judgement. Why could he have not made a quick recommendation to the board on what should happen.


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Re: Now it's died down

Post by oldfella on Tue Oct 02, 2018 9:20 am

Hey people, the grand final was played north won
Congatulations north adelaide

Many do not understand how in practical terms how the interchange steward situation works during a game and while i will not quote rules and reg i based my comments on observations of operation during a game from the players bench.

There is a league appointed interchange steward who records all interchanges and both teams have a team member responsible for advising the interchange steward of any interchange prior (in theory) to it occuring but sometimes simultaneously  ---- normal wording is number X off number Z on --- the interchange steward has a running sheet that shows who is on ground so he can imediately confirm player X is actually on the ground ------ sometimes whilst club official is advising the team undertake an quick change behind his back unseen sothere is obvious give and take within fair time boundaries normally this is picked up within seconds

At start of each quarter the club official advises interchange steward of player number on the bench which the interchange steward records ---------  i have witnessed the interchange steward look up at the start of a quarter see a player on the field who his numbers show should be on the bench and calls the club person over to rectify ---- happens more often than supporters believe in the high pressure cauldron

Based on my own club west adelaide at league and reserves level i have observed as the players come to the bench the relevant club official identifies those player and if a player is in the rooms confirms that he is there --- most clubs official do the same.

In the north case it would appear that the club official did not do due diligance to confirm the location of the players listed on the bench (or in rooms) hence error occured ----- club quite rightly was sanctioned strongly for this error and official concerned dealt with internally.

IT HAPPENS --- NO CHEATING BY NORTH AND ACUSATIONS OF CHEATING OR UNWORTHY PREMIERS IS JUST WRONG IMO
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Re: Now it's died down

Post by oldfella on Tue Oct 02, 2018 9:30 am

PS --- welcome and great first post hibother
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Re: Now it's died down

Post by oldfella on Tue Oct 02, 2018 9:55 am

Goddy11
Great post also.

The honourable gentleman that done the investigation has impecable credentials and his finding especially where he states that he believed that what was the correct remediation action in his opinion he could not recomend to to limitations to his investigation.

He should have been allowed to review and advise the board in a complete legal sense of what happenned and why further with no limitations he should have been free to make recomendations to the board of what in his opinion a fair resolution was with THE BOARD MAKING THE FINAL DECISION.

NOTE --- WHILST THERE ARE RULES THE BOARD CAN CLEARLY OVERIDE THOSE RULES AND MAKE DETERMINATIONS OUTSIDE OF THESE RULES.

The way it was done was a very clever manouve by the board to limit damage to the SANFL brand and limit legal liability

Whilst specifically i state that personal opinion nothing was in anyway ilegal it is another blinding example of lack of strong leadership by the SANFL BOARD -- surely another example of why its time for change to the leadership of the game in south australia
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Re: Now it's died down

Post by whybother on Tue Oct 02, 2018 10:16 am

Hello fellow posters on this topic. Thanks for your welcome & encouragement. With respect to Oldfella's explanation of the interchange rules, I have a "problem" with the comment

At start of each quarter the club official advises interchange steward of player number on the bench which the interchange steward records ---------  i have witnessed the interchange steward look up at the start of a quarter see a player on the field who his numbers show should be on the bench and calls the club person over to rectify ---- happens more often than supporters believe in the high pressure cauldron

My reading of the Rules of the Game wrt to interchange stewards is that they note the breach and notify the League. There is no instruction to do on-the-spot repairs by notifying the offending team. To do this is to effectively nullify the offended team's captain to call a count. Perhaps both teams' interchange bench should be notified at the same time: then a hilarious race to see who can respond quickest: call a count or get a player off.

My recommendation for what it's worth, if these off-the-field officials are to get involved in the on-field running of the game, is to have them sound the siren to signify that a count is to be made. This would get around the antiquated rule of a captain having to take on the role of an umpire. I think that the Eagles captains in the PF probably had their hands full in trying to work out what was going on, and probably at the time the last thing on their mind was the existence of an extra man.
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Re: Now it's died down

Post by oldfella on Tue Oct 02, 2018 11:15 am

hybother wrote:Hello fellow posters on this topic. Thanks for your welcome & encouragement. With respect to Oldfella's explanation of the interchange rules, I have a "problem" with the comment

At start of each quarter the club official advises interchange steward of player number on the bench which the interchange steward records ---------  i have witnessed the interchange steward look up at the start of a quarter see a player on the field who his numbers show should be on the bench and calls the club person over to rectify ---- happens more often than supporters believe in the high pressure cauldron

My reading of the Rules of the Game wrt to interchange stewards is that they note the breach and notify the League. There is no instruction to do on-the-spot repairs by notifying the offending team. To do this is to effectively nullify the offended team's captain to call a count. Perhaps both teams' interchange bench should be notified at the same time: then a hilarious race to see who can respond quickest: call a count or get a player off.

My recommendation for what it's worth, if these off-the-field officials are to get involved in the on-field running of the game, is to have them sound the siren to signify that a count is to be made. This would get around the antiquated rule of a captain having to take on the role of an umpire. I think that the Eagles captains in the PF probably had their hands full in trying to work out what was going on, and probably at the time the last thing on their mind was the existence of an extra man.

Hi mate fair comment well worded and i will try to respond.

Your interpretation of the rules is probably correct as i honestly have not read up on this recently --- i did indicate in my post that my comments were based not on the rules but on what i have observed actually happen as a long term volunteer footy staff member and actally have done a couple of games as replacement reserves team manager and stand in reserves interchange official.

Totally agree that rules are rules and must be observed and obeyed or it becomes a bun fight ------ however, rules and regulations tell teams and individuals what action must be observed however very few or no direction is given to  action in excess of the rules therefore it could be fairly suggested that providing that the rules/laws of the game are obeyed then a professional working relationship between clubs and SANFL officials is not only legal but good practice.

Many supporters do not realise here is actually an extra team in all levels of league which is all league and team officials knowing trusting and working within the rules/laws of the game and in excess where not barred for the overall good of the game of football and i give just two eamples of the many working relationships that occur within the rules of the game

CLUB DOCTORS ---- the rule require the club appoints a club doctor which all do --- the rules also call for a doctor to be present at all games which clubs comply with --- however by the nature of thier profession doctors at short notice can be called away for medical emergencies of a patient at hospital and in this case the club A doctor will provide medical services including stiching, medical diagnosis and treatment and medical management of a critical injured player of club B---- it is not unusual to see where there is a medical overload for a club doctor for the opposition doctor to assist and work together as a team --- actions not against the rules and clearly not mentioned in the rules but does happen.

TIME KEEPERS --- rules require each club appoint a time keeper which they do total 2 timekeeper --- the rules clearly indicate timekeepers duties including need for actions during game breaks and reporting actions at end of the game which they comply with ----- HOWEVER this means that before and after and for the full extent of the game (two and half hours minimun) these officials are under strong concentration stess levels ---- given that most are older persons and like myself need to have a nature break or need a short break to destress then it is quite normal for one time keeper to keep time whilst the other attends to personal needs  --- totally within the rules and not mentioned in the rules  but does happen at most games.

Your call for a siren or otber method of advising the field umpires is in no way stupid but in fact is coverred within the rules not by a siren but, as i read the rules,  by the league interchange steward advising the emergency umpire who should then enter the field and use his whistle to stop the game and advise the onfield umpires of the breech so they can undertake a count.

It is my understanding that the league interchange steward met all his requirements under the rules and did advise the emergency umpire ---- for him to confirm prior to this action that there was actually a breech (as the league interchange steward is only human and can also make editing mistakes) was imo a very professional thing to do and he would have then be active in observing that no player left the field prior to the count and that would report any observation to the field umpires.

It is a matter of record that situation was reported to emergency umpire but it seems that the emergency umpire did not act --- this is my understanding from press and SANFL reports and talking to various club officials

Sorry so long winded but hope answers some of your well put questions mate
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Re: Now it's died down

Post by Chambo Off To Work We Go on Tue Oct 02, 2018 11:25 am

Given the amount of debate on this incident ranging from game outcome to allegations of cheating to penalties / sanctions and then possible compensation and rule changes, it is clear that the present system is far too ambiguous to provide fairness to all parties.

I just hope that whatever the SANFL comes up with by way of alterations to the system and / or rules surrounding interchanges to negate this sort of thing happening are practical, clear and transparent.
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Re: Now it's died down

Post by oldfella on Tue Oct 02, 2018 11:36 am

Chsnbo --- i may be unfairly or incorrectly accusing the emergency umpire of not doing his duty under the rules as i understand the rules.

If he had obeyed the rules on being advised and stopped the game with the onfield umpires conducting a count and on finding 19 men adjusted the scores all by the rules then it can be seen that the existing rules if followed are appropriate with the exception of need for long mandatory suspension for any player or official trying to advoid or interfere with the count

I read your post to be in relation to rules relating to follow up after the game where a breech clearly occurred and was not picked up or appropriately dealt with during the game --- based on this your post would have to go close to the post of the year award -- totally agree
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Re: Now it's died down

Post by goddy11 on Tue Oct 02, 2018 12:04 pm

Oldfella,
When you mention Timekeepers and perhaps the Stats guys. I can not believe the level of concentration and pressure they are under. Their appreciation of what's happening around the ground is beyond my grasp. Never get any of the praise they deserve.
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Re: Now it's died down

Post by oldfella on Tue Oct 02, 2018 12:07 pm

Great comment mate

Whist not generally recognised in the wider community i can assure you from personal experience that they are all unpaid volunteers respected and acknowledge by all coaches, player and senior club board members and executives.

West adelaides under grand stand approach to the word team strongly supported by the senior coach and players is that

All who work within the football environment to provide match day football orientated support and those who during the week assist the preparation and training of individual team mates called player so the senior coach at all grades can select a side of 21 to represent the club on match day are TEAM
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Re: Now it's died down

Post by Chambo Off To Work We Go on Tue Oct 02, 2018 12:33 pm

oldfella wrote:Chsnbo --- i may be unfairly or incorrectly accusing the emergency umpire of not doing his duty under the rules as i understand the rules.

If he had obeyed the rules on being advised and stopped the game with the onfield umpires conducting a count and on finding 19 men adjusted the scores all by the rules then it can be seen that the existing rules if followed are appropriate with the exception of need for long mandatory suspension for any player or official trying to advoid or interfere with the count

I read your post to be in relation to rules relating to follow up after the game where a breech clearly occurred and was not picked up or appropriately dealt with during the game --- based on this your post would have to go close to the post of the year award -- totally agree

I really can't say if someone erred in this and who that might have been. From your recount of how things happen in practice, it would seem the system is in place to deal with such infringements. However in that event, something clearly went awry in this case.

However, yes the aftermath post match of it all seemed farcical to me and did not seem to be adequately catered to in the rules. I would imagine the sanfl will look into both areas and determine what they think is necessary to prevent a repeat of it.

Just in relation to the count of players and consequent penalties, I think that a complete score wipe is a bit outdated given all of the work going into interchange monitoring and recording. As it seems realistic that infringements and length of time they occur can and should be picked up there and then by officials, it would seem more appropriate to just wipe any score that occurs during this period.

Even if that happens some point later than the incident. To me that better maintains the integrity of the contest, even if it has an impact on the result. Maybe it isn't perfect, but better than what occurred in the aftermath of the Prelim Final. I accept that the tribunal's hands were somewhat tied, but it shows that something needs to change.

Fines may also be appropriate and even sanctions against officials perhaps if it is found that there are repeat offenders.
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Re: Now it's died down

Post by oldfella on Tue Oct 02, 2018 1:17 pm

Chambo Off To Work We Go wrote: in relation to the count of players and consequent penalties, I think that a complete score wipe is a bit outdated given all of the work going into interchange monitoring and recording. As it seems realistic that infringements and length of time they occur can and should be picked up there and then by officials, it would seem more appropriate to just wipe any score that occurs during this period.

Even if that happens some point later than the incident. To me that better maintains the integrity of the contest, even if it has an impact on the result. Maybe it isn't perfect, but better than what occurred in the aftermath of the Prelim Final. I accept that the tribunal's hands were somewhat tied, but it shows that something needs to change.

Fines may also be appropriate and even sanctions against officials perhaps if it is found that there are repeat offenders.

Fully agree with your comment

Only difficulty i can see is how during a game can official judge for how long the offence occurred for and what scores changes to the score occurred during this period also
A       for both teams or only offenders scoring removed
B       defining how many scoring shots for the non offending team was prevented during this time and should they perhaps be given shot on goal where defender marks ball within 50m arc or punches away in 50m arc or other defensive actions

Sadly reguardless of in game rules when all potential  ramifications are considerred i feel that  application of a count and penalties during the game are inappropriate sadly these issues need be sorted out after the game.

Some immediate changes are as follows however WILL NOT GET UP AS IT INVOLVES COMMON SENSE BY THE SANFL.

At ever breakpresently bench players go to the team meeting then walk directly to the bench in a croud of coaches and support staff hence not easily observed by the league interchange steward --- this also occurs after half time where bench players warm up on field that move to bench as described. RULE CHANGE -- AT END OF A BREAK ALL INTERCHANGE PLAYERS ARE TOO LEAVE THE GROUND AT THE SECOND SIREN (OF 3 SIRENS) VIA THE INTERCHANGE GATE AND REMAIN IN THAT VICINITY UNTIL THE LEAGUE INTERCHANGE STEWARD IDENTIFIES THEM AND RELEASES THEM TO THE BENCH ---- WHERE A PLAYER IS NOT AVAILABLE DUE TO INJURY THEN THE RESPONSIBLE CLUB OFFICIAL MUST PHYSICALLY SIGHT HIM AND CONFIRM HIS/HER LOCATION TO THE INTERCHANGE STEWARD PRIOR TO THE COMMENCEMENT OF THE QUARTER.

PRESENT RULES FOR  ON ACTION FOR EMERGENCY UMPIRES TO STOP THE GAME FOR A COUNT TO BE INITIATED BE CHANGED TO REFLECT EMERGENCY UMPIRE STOPPING THE GAME OR DELAYING THE START OF A QUARTER UNTIL THE ADDITIONAL PLAYER IS REMOVED OR INJURED PLAYER S LOCATION PHYSICALLY CONFIRMED BY RELEVANT CLUB OFFICIAL AND REPORTED TO INTERCHANGE STEWARD


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