NEW WIN LOSS FIGURES IN BUDGET EXPLANATION

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NEW WIN LOSS FIGURES IN BUDGET EXPLANATION

Post by mark beswick on Fri Jun 30, 2017 4:27 pm

During the week as Official SANFL Historian, I asked the budget to reset Port Adelaide WIN/LOSS records from 2011-2017.

In 2010, The Port Adelaide Football Club wanted to formalise a Reserves team in the SANFL. In doing so, it gave up its share in Football Park, its place on the Football Commission, its Junior Zones and signed up to an agreement with the SANFL under its AFL Parent Licence as the “Powers” seconds side and had agreements to run an Academy Side in the SANFL Reserves competition. The Old Port Adelaide amalgamated its assets (Prince of Wales Hotel) under its “One Club” drive and achieved its aim.
It is therefore time to realise that the stats for this side needed amending on official SANFL records and publications. it was incumbent to make sure that we record our history with accuracy and note that Port Adelaide (Magpies) must be seen as a new SANFL entity since 2011 seeking to win its first Senior Football Premiership.

The revised win / loss stats should be adopted in this weeks Football Budget and wasnt a decision made by the editor or the budget so please don't hassle them.
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Re: NEW WIN LOSS FIGURES IN BUDGET EXPLANATION

Post by Lee on Fri Jun 30, 2017 4:32 pm

Very interesting

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Re: NEW WIN LOSS FIGURES IN BUDGET EXPLANATION

Post by bayman on Fri Jun 30, 2017 5:53 pm

It should be changed & it's about time, however I'd have it changing when the power reserves started in the competition
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Re: NEW WIN LOSS FIGURES IN BUDGET EXPLANATION

Post by PhilH on Fri Jun 30, 2017 6:08 pm

Interesting, the problem is there are at least 5 different start dates.

1877 - when SAFA association commenced


1907 - the consensus start date for stats for every record book done since the 1970's

1997 - when the Port Adelaide Football clubs elite team played AFL, new Magpies entity formed

2011 - as outlined above

2014 - when Magpies became Power reserves

All of these have reasonably strong arguments attached to them.


I should add as the one who produces the weekly stats report for media covering SANFL (Inc Football Budget) which includes head to head stats.

The instructions I received back in 2014 was to keep records of Port Magpies in SANFL league back to 1907.

Should I be advised to change by the SANFL officials I co-ordinate with then I will act accordingly.
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Re: NEW WIN LOSS FIGURES IN BUDGET EXPLANATION

Post by mark beswick on Fri Jun 30, 2017 6:31 pm

I discussed this with 2 commissioners recently and at sanfl wafc board mtgs. Happy to chat with you phil.
I also let two sanfl employees know at beginning of the week.
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Re: NEW WIN LOSS FIGURES IN BUDGET EXPLANATION

Post by bayman on Fri Jun 30, 2017 7:15 pm

only ''one group'' will bitch & moan about it....while your at it Mark how about getting them to wear a ''reserves Power jumper'' rather than the magpie jumper which is nothing more than a shambolic gesture
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Re: NEW WIN LOSS FIGURES IN BUDGET EXPLANATION

Post by mark beswick on Fri Jun 30, 2017 7:41 pm

Think ill need to upgrade from lowly wafc board member to get that to happen AND i agree, they should wear the power jumper.
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Re: NEW WIN LOSS FIGURES IN BUDGET EXPLANATION

Post by mickyj on Sat Jul 01, 2017 9:44 am

bayman wrote:only ''one group'' will bitch & moan about it....while your at it Mark how about getting them to wear a ''reserves Power jumper'' rather than the magpie jumper which is nothing more than a shambolic gesture

i agree they should wear a power reserves jumper

Sorry i wont run down either AFL seconds teams but honestly two AFL teams playing under different rules to each other
Time they both played by the same rules in the SANFL
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Re: NEW WIN LOSS FIGURES IN BUDGET EXPLANATION

Post by Chambo Off To Work We Go on Sat Jul 01, 2017 12:07 pm

The longer they wear the prison bars, the more it dilutes their rich history pre-afl entry. I'm not sure which one of the above dates is most correct that Phil has offered, but 2014 is the version that has p!ssed me off the most and continues to do so.
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Re: NEW WIN LOSS FIGURES IN BUDGET EXPLANATION

Post by rocket_rooster on Sat Jul 01, 2017 6:32 pm

PhilH has missed the most important date in the history of SA footy and that is 1897. That is the date most historians use. I am more than surprised that Phil states that 1907 has been used since the 1970s. That is not true. It was used up until the 1970s when Dr. Bernard Whimpress proved that 1907 was an insignificant date. All that happened in 1907 is that the SAFA changed its name to the SAFL. You might as well use 1928 when the SAFL became the SANFL. It has only been in the past few years that 1907 has been used again. Prior to Dr Whimpress' research premierships prior to 1907 were not recognised! I have been in touch with a NAFC historian who assures me that he has been in touch with Mark Beswick about correcting this mistake.
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Re: NEW WIN LOSS FIGURES IN BUDGET EXPLANATION

Post by mark beswick on Sat Jul 01, 2017 7:25 pm

My stats go back to 1870 BUT I agree with Win/Loss records beginning in 1897. I havent had time owing to health yet to update these but its on a long list of things to do.

I do love Phil's stats and the way he presents them by the way!
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Re: NEW WIN LOSS FIGURES IN BUDGET EXPLANATION

Post by mark beswick on Sat Jul 01, 2017 7:29 pm

Also, I posted this on the other site - FYI

Ports new annual reports start 2011.
Sturts annual report at end of 2010 talks about the new Port Adelaide as do some other club annual reports.
The 2010 Port Adelaide annual report was the last time it reported as a separate entity.
From 2011 on, you will note all Magpie accounts are part of the AFL/Powers accounts and the magpies cease to have their own separate annual report. You wil also see tokenistic references to the Maggies which gets smaller each year although still much larger than what the crows present in their year-book/report.

I have all the Power and Magpie annual reports from this period as well as all other sanfl clubs from 1970 onwards. While 2014 would sit well, historically the new Port Club starts 2011 which I agree is messy but accuarte.
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Re: NEW WIN LOSS FIGURES IN BUDGET EXPLANATION

Post by Booney on Tue Jul 25, 2017 9:04 am

Glad this has been rectified. "Unanimous support", my ****.

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Re: NEW WIN LOSS FIGURES IN BUDGET EXPLANATION

Post by Booney on Tue Jul 25, 2017 9:12 am

bayman wrote:only ''one group'' will bitch & moan about it....while your at it Mark how about getting them to wear a ''reserves Power jumper'' rather than the magpie jumper which is nothing more than a shambolic gesture

Mind your business, we'll mind ours.

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Re: NEW WIN LOSS FIGURES IN BUDGET EXPLANATION

Post by bayman on Tue Jul 25, 2017 5:01 pm

Booney wrote:
bayman wrote:only ''one group'' will bitch & moan about it....while your at it Mark how about getting them to wear a ''reserves Power jumper'' rather than the magpie jumper which is nothing more than a shambolic gesture

Mind your business, we'll mind ours.


Ahh welcome back, I'm allowed to have an opinion & it is a correct opinion as well
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Re: NEW WIN LOSS FIGURES IN BUDGET EXPLANATION

Post by mickyj on Tue Jul 25, 2017 5:43 pm

mark beswick wrote:My stats go back to 1870 BUT I agree with Win/Loss records beginning in 1897. I havent had time owing to health yet to update these but its on a long list of things to do.

I do love Phil's stats and the way he presents them by the way!

Hey Mark hope your well I do enjoy reading your posts
I may not have kept up with this topic
Not a dig at port so no hackles up

If stats go back to 1897 that's when Port Natives became west Torrens
Do the Port Natives stats come under West Torrens stats
I won't suggest they all come under Woodville West Torrens stats
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Re: NEW WIN LOSS FIGURES IN BUDGET EXPLANATION

Post by mickyj on Tue Jul 25, 2017 5:45 pm

Booney wrote:
bayman wrote:only ''one group'' will bitch & moan about it....while your at it Mark how about getting them to wear a ''reserves Power jumper'' rather than the magpie jumper which is nothing more than a shambolic gesture

Mind your business, we'll mind ours.


Welcome back booney
I've enjoyed your holiday posts on FB mate

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Re: NEW WIN LOSS FIGURES IN BUDGET EXPLANATION

Post by mark beswick on Tue Jul 25, 2017 8:21 pm

Hi MickyJ

Good Points -

I'll post this one about the Natives - Its from an old file and I havent access to my database at the moment which has corrections - Need to fix something which is stopping some files from opening and I've just got home from treatment with my oncologist.

NATIVES:

The first known reports of a West Torrens Football Club can be traced to 1879. This side was captained by a Mr W. Dishley two years after the SAFA was formed. This West Torrens club wore red attire and was aptly nicknamed the "Butchers" as they played their games at the West Park Slaughter Yards near the Old Adelaide Gaol. In 1884, some six years later, this club now wearing red and white, joined the Adelaide and Suburban Association with great success. They competed in this competition until the end of the 1886 season, but records following this date and the eventual demise of this entity require more work.

Junior clubs in various associations existed in a variety of competitions in the late 19th Century, but none of these were B-Grade sides directly affiliated with senior clubs. The Alberton Football Club was a successful junior club with local ties to the Port Adelaide League Club. After a disagreement with the Port Adelaide Senior Football Club, the Alberton Football Club altered its name to the Port Natives, a relative of the West Torrens Club that played in the SANFL until recently. This club competed in the Adelaide and Suburban Association.

After a short period of time, the Port Natives Club which competed in the Adelaide and Suburban Association, decided to set their sights higher discussing the possibility of applying for a position in the SAFA. This idea was to be taken by the Port Natives management to the members. As a result, an advert was lodged and posted in the Advertiser Newspaper on Thursday February the 28th 1895 announcing that a meeting of members was to take place at the Admiral Hotel to discuss the possibility of forming a senior football club. A follow-up meeting was then arranged on the 1st of March at Dr Ralph Pott's Surgery at 74 Grenfell Street, Adelaide.

On Friday, March the tenth 1895, a third meeting was held at the Port Admiral Hotel and it was here that the members voted in favour of forming a new senior football club. The vote affirmed the managements desire to have a senior club. The new entity was to be known as the Natives Football Club. The name for this new club was carefully chosen avoiding any affiliation to any given geographical locale. The colours of Blue and Gold were then adopted and were believed to be inspired by a visiting team from the Yorke Peninsula.

With the confidence and support of members, management representing the Natives Football Club sent a communique to the South Australian Football Association asking to be accepted into the senior competition. The request was received by the SAFA on the 1st of April, 1895 and the SAFA delegates discussed and declined the application after a tied vote.

The SAFA's decision was not final as this bad news was accompanied with a glimmer of hope. The letter requested more information, specifically asking the Natives for a financial statement and a list of players' names. The Natives adhered to the new request and submitted a financial statement and a list of 51 players, many who represented the defunct Port Natives 1894 Premiership side in the Adelaide and Suburban Association.

A special meeting at the Exchange Hotel was held by the SAFA upon receiving the Native's financial statement and players list on Monday April 8. After sifting through the reports and playing lists, the SAFA delegates discussed the merits of admitting a new team into the competition. After much debate, a second and final vote was held and the club was admitted with thirteen delegates to five in favour of the Natives joining the SAFA for season 1897. The news was greeted with delight by the Natives board and they subsequently named Dr Ralph Potts as their first patron.

The Natives first game saw the players wear a yellow Guernsey and stockings with a yellow band draped across the right shoulder. The colours after that game reverted to the agreed Blue and Gold as decided upon by the members at the March thirteen meeting.

In 1897, a new scoring system was introduced to South Australian Football. For the first time, behinds were to be counted as well as goals. This new scoring system which is still used today, was also adopted by the Victorian Leagues. 1897 also saw the introduction of the Electorate Football Scheme. This meant that residents of an electorate were meant to play for the team representing their district. These residential rules were not enforced in 1897, and it wasn't until 1898 that this system started to take hold against the strong wills of the established South Adelaide, Norwood and Port Adelaide football clubs.

As a result of the Electorate Football ideals and principles, players from the Natives football club of 1896 suggested a change of name. As a result, the Natives changed their name to "West Torrens" for the 1897 season so they could better associate with their electoral district. The players believed that local residents would be better able to identify with a club representing their district and it was hoped that more players and supporters would give their support to footballers playing for their local suburbs.
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Re: NEW WIN LOSS FIGURES IN BUDGET EXPLANATION

Post by mark beswick on Tue Jul 25, 2017 8:30 pm

Pt 2 - Mickyj Response

The answer to your question is sort of yes with a qualification.

When health permits, I plan to organise with the SANFL Historical Group a proposal to start game win/loss stats back to 1897 rather than 1907 (As the competition only had a banner name change like the VFL to AFL did). This time I will re-propose the Port Stats from 2010 for the commission as a whole to consider alongsie the 1897 start point for wins and losses.

As for clubs that change names:

Medindie became North Adelaide with a name change BUT we count the games and players stats for fixtures where the club was a SAFA member. So the North Historians have been busy piecing together players from Medindie FC and trying to add these games for players that overlap with the name change to North Adelaide - Nick Haines is the expert on Medindie and has done an incredible aount of work with the North Historians. I admire that group and the work they do.

Players that played before the club joins the safa need to be recorded separately and this is probably how we should view the Natives.

Hence...
As Natives/Port Natives were in another league, we dont count these games as SAFL/SANFL league games. You could if you had the time, try and find as many names for Port Natives/Alberton and separate their tallies under the Adelaide and Suburban Compeition. I have started to look at premiership ladders for this competition but have a lot of gaps to fill

Hope these responses were not too boring. Smile
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Re: NEW WIN LOSS FIGURES IN BUDGET EXPLANATION

Post by Scrappy on Tue Jul 25, 2017 9:21 pm

Should we go back to the South Australian Football Association days that started in 1877 for these stats ?
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Re: NEW WIN LOSS FIGURES IN BUDGET EXPLANATION

Post by mickyj on Tue Jul 25, 2017 9:23 pm

Thanks Mark
Wasn't boring at all
Sorry to put you through all that
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Re: NEW WIN LOSS FIGURES IN BUDGET EXPLANATION

Post by mark beswick on Tue Jul 25, 2017 10:23 pm

My pleasure Mickyj

Scrappy - Norwood have done a lot in this regard with their records with their history group and Mark Giles has done a lot as well for Port Adelaide. Trevor Gyss has done some books on this period too.

As for my records, I have done bits and pieces with some players pre 1897 but have concentrated on adding players game X game from 1897 - present day. I have done Norwood, North and West Adelaide game x game with umpires, players, goals, and jumper numbers 1897-2017. For the other clubs I have done 1897-1919 and 1987-2017. I have a long way to go. All SANFL and WAFL State games are done now.

Earlier this year I used all the TROVE papers online and some other papers at Mortlock not online to record as best I could for the 1916-1918 Patriotic period. This included umpires, crowds, qtr x qtr scores and players who definetley played and annotations where a player was named but not confirmed whether he took the field.

PRE 1897 Records as Scrappy mentioned:
My records have for players pre 1897 or overlap recorded in two segments:

eg only - George Carter
North Adelaide SAFA 1896 x games x goals
North Adelaide SANFL 1899-1904 62 games 0 goals

The separation year 1897 is based on the Club stats using modern football scoring system 1897- and SAFA stats 1877-1896 as different scoring system - When you add them together you get a players complete picture. When (one day) I finish the 1897-2017 game x game task, I will go back and do the 1877-1896 period.
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Re: NEW WIN LOSS FIGURES IN BUDGET EXPLANATION

Post by Booney on Wed Jul 26, 2017 7:46 am

bayman wrote:
Booney wrote:
bayman wrote:only ''one group'' will bitch & moan about it....while your at it Mark how about getting them to wear a ''reserves Power jumper'' rather than the magpie jumper which is nothing more than a shambolic gesture

Mind your business, we'll mind ours.


Ahh welcome back, I'm allowed to have an opinion & it is a correct opinion as well

Opinions are opinions, facts are facts, don't confuse the two.

Anyway, sanity prevails.
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