An Unhappy Marriage.

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An Unhappy Marriage.

Post by Ben W on Fri Aug 28, 2015 11:11 am

From todays Advertiser,

WHEN the AFL muscled into the SANFL, loyal fans felt like their club had broken up with them.

Well what a bad breakup it has been. There has been nothing amicable about the AFL’s incursion. The crowds have stayed away in their droves; the 2015 attendances are the lowest for years. But it’s been such a wet winter, you say. Well no, this winter has been drier than average. The fans are staying away because they are indifferent about a competition that has one rule for Port, one for Adelaide, and another for the other eight clubs. They are aggrieved at their competition being devalued. By it being turned into a proving ground for professionals.

Some say the disgruntled fans should get over themselves. Well the offence taken is owned by those taking offence. How dare people tell fans how to feel.
The SANFL is built upon communities. Communities convening over a beer and barbie. Grassroots communities who spawn the AFL stars of the future.
Here is the irony of the whole fiasco. Inserting AFL teams has tainted a highly-productive football nursery. Because by eating into attendances, the AFL incursion has weakened clubs already under enormous financial pressure.

Too often this discussion strays into dead pockets of argument attacking the Crows and Power. That misses the point.
It is about a compromised competition (and don’t give me the “it was compromised before” line — under the old system AFL players were allocated via a draft). There is a solution. An AFL reserves competition would make everyone happy. Imagine filling all that dead time before games watching the up-and-comers play? It’s time for the SANFL to push for an AFL reserves competition. To show some leadership, not remain in denial.
“On all measures apart from one the SANFL has more interest in it,” SANFL chief executive Jake Parkinson said recently. The “one” measure, of course, is attendances. Well there’s an old line that businesses — and football sadly is a business these days — ignore at their peril.
It is this: The customer is always right. Many SANFL customers are shopping elsewhere.

Andrew Faulkner is a journalist and author.

http://www.adelaidenow.com.au/messenger/andrew-faulkner-why-we-need-to-rethink-adelaides-footy-break-up/story-fni9lkvc-1227501443073
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Re: An Unhappy Marriage.

Post by Gingernuts on Fri Aug 28, 2015 11:22 am

A reasonable article in many ways (and I speak as a predominantly Adelaide fan who feels that our reserves side has been of untold benefit to us).

However - the assumption that the SANFL would be 'saved' if the reserves sides left for an AFL reserves competition is inherently flawed in my opinion.

In many ways I think the AFL reserves teams have just provided a convenient excuse for a decline that was/is inevitable anyway.

The more pressing issue IMO is the fact that the AFL can make $2.5 billion dollars out of the game of aussie rules without returning any of those funds to the grass roots that support it (beyond the auskick program).

They are destroying the very competitions that support them and yet still expect them to feed talent up the chain, all while also quarantining most of their customer base and therefore income streams.
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Re: An Unhappy Marriage.

Post by Scrunch on Fri Aug 28, 2015 11:36 am

Reasonable post Ginger. I agree that there's no definitive evidence that the SANFL would be "saved" should the AFL clubs be removed. By the same token there's no definitive evidence to suggest the competition would further decline or completely succumb, should they leave. I dont think the AFL clubs have provided an excuse - It's easy to spot (even without the facts that support it) that interest in the competition is in decline. The reserves clubs haven't been the saviour's they were claiming they would be, albeit whether they truly believed it is irrelevant - They sold their case well, and as always its a case of buyer beware - And that's where the responsibility for the decision must sit, with the buyers.

Your last two paragraphs have been my biggest beef for a long time. As custodians of the game, the AFL are effectively saying "Have all the opportunity in the world to make a career from the sport at AFL level, but nowhere else". Whilst the SANFL and it's clubs have the biggest burden of responsibility to ensure their survival, surely so too does the games highest body, given the impact they have had on other leagues and their need for junior participation and developed talent.

The AFL isn't content with a high %age of the Pie, they want ALL of it, and that does and is going to flow detrimentally to lower levels.
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Re: An Unhappy Marriage.

Post by Chambo Off To Work We Go on Fri Aug 28, 2015 11:46 am

Nothing I have read in this thread from top to bottom I could disagree with.

But at last someone has written an article telling it like it is. 100% agree with it.
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Re: An Unhappy Marriage.

Post by Gingernuts on Fri Aug 28, 2015 11:48 am

I think the AFL should offer a significant annual grant to State Level competitions in all states personally (being WA, SA, VIC, TAS, NT).

They actually run and fund the NSW & QLD competitions after all.

They definitely have to revisit the governance and financial models for the game IMO. Otherwise in effect the foundations of the game (second & third tier comps) will crumble.
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Re: An Unhappy Marriage.

Post by bayman on Fri Aug 28, 2015 7:14 pm

Gingernuts wrote:A reasonable article in many ways (and I speak as a predominantly Adelaide fan who feels that our reserves side has been of untold benefit to us).



i agree with everything posted above, especially the actual article....GN, can you explain to me what are the ''untold benefits''

i know i've said it before, yes i agree they (all 18 of them) should have their own reserves teams, but they should not be in traditional competitions, they should be in their own competition, they can say this system works because of where Fremantle & West Coast are this season, but i can say that from a starting point of nothing the crows won 2 flags in 8 years, this could mean that if they haven't won 2 flags by 2021 that the system has failed them......regardless of any system the great sides will be great & the ordinary sides will be just that

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Re: An Unhappy Marriage.

Post by bayman on Tue Sep 01, 2015 11:26 pm

i've copied this from the snouts site who in turn got it from the Adelaidenow website...............


SANFL clubs say the raging success of footy at Adelaide Oval has led to a concerning downturn in crowds at their games.

Figures released exclusively to The Advertiser show minor round attendance at SANFL matches was down by an alarming 13 per cent in 2015, and clubs dispute the theory that supporter backlash against the entry of AFL reserves teams is the cause.

Instead, they say the runaway success of footy in the city meant fans who baulked at live AFL in the later years of West Lakes had returned, causing some to desert the SANFL.

An extra 15,000-20,000 people a weekend are attending AFL in Adelaide, and SANFL clubs say some don’t have the time or money to also attend local games.

“There’s no doubt that success of Adelaide Oval has had an effect on SANFL crowds,’’ Woodville-West Torrens chief executive Peter Schwarz said.

The Eagles’ home crowds were slightly down this season despite the fact they won the minor premiership.

The league average attendance fell from 2819 in 2014 to 2453.

Crowds in 2014 were down 6.3 per cent on 2013.

SANFL general manager Adam Kelly said the cold winter had a significant impact and pointed to the fact league-wide membership was up.

“(Crowds were) impacted significantly by the cold and wet conditions,’’ said Kelly, who added crowds had been healthy in August as weather improved.

But Sturt chief executive Sue Dewing agreed with Schwarz that the Adelaide Oval upturn was a major factor.

“People are time poor and some of them just do not have the time to spend a day at Adelaide Oval for the AFL and then also attend an SANFL match,’’ she said.

Dewing said partnering with the AFL clubs, particularly Adelaide, to draw better crowds to Crows reserves games needed to be a priority in 2016.

She said using high-profile Crows players to promote local games and having them available for autograph signings and activities would boost family attendance.

Dewing also said improving the SANFL match day experience, along with engaging local communities and junior football, was vital.

Schwarz agreed community engagement was key and said holding a junior carnival at Woodville before the Eagles’ round 17 home match against Adelaide had boosted the crowd by more than 2000 to a bumper 4679.

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Re: An Unhappy Marriage.

Post by bayman on Tue Sep 01, 2015 11:27 pm

this was my reply on the snouts website..................

the only thing i agree with is the last sentence, the junior carnival did boost the crowd by at least 50% kids & parents everywhere that day..............cold/wet weather is absolute garbage, it hasn't been that wet this year, i've got wet once, the two reasons crowds are down is the inclusion of 2 franchise teams & the fact they charge $14.00 entry fee & while you don't have to buy food & drinks they are expensive, cokes range from $4.50 to $5.00 depending on the ground, i have no idea how much value is in the alcohol but i doubt it'd be cheap & add a budget & your about $30.00 down for the day & off course it could be double or more if there is more than one of you, on the entry fee it SHOULD BE $10.00
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Re: An Unhappy Marriage.

Post by Ben W on Wed Sep 02, 2015 7:57 am

As the original posted article states, this was actually a mild winter statistically than previous years. Using that as an excuse suggests they are actually clutching at straws rather than face the real issue.
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Re: An Unhappy Marriage.

Post by Chambo Off To Work We Go on Wed Sep 02, 2015 8:53 am

I agree, it is too convenient to just point to alleged weather patterns or just Adelaide Oval matches.

They will kill it dead if they don't realise there is supporter backlash to the current make up of the sanfl.
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Re: An Unhappy Marriage.

Post by Ben W on Wed Sep 02, 2015 10:23 am

I would be interested to hear from the SANFL what their arguement is for keeping the name SANFL and local management as opposed to becoming AFLSA with assistance from the AFL to run the competition? As it stands, what realistically is the difference?
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Re: An Unhappy Marriage.

Post by Scrunch on Wed Sep 02, 2015 10:54 am

Ben W wrote:I would be interested to hear from the SANFL what their arguement is for keeping the name SANFL and local management as opposed to becoming AFLSA with assistance from the AFL to run the competition? As it stands, what realistically is the difference?

Any move to AFLSA will see the Salary Cap limit severely reduced, the rub would probably be increased funding for junior development in SA.

I don't think that's in the best interest of the SANFL comp most of us (non-AFL supporting types) want to see, so we best hope it doesn't happen.
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Re: An Unhappy Marriage.

Post by Chambo Off To Work We Go on Wed Sep 02, 2015 11:48 am

The sanfl would virtually have to cede control to the afl for this to happen.
I can't see the clubs agreeing to that.

But in this environment, the powerbrokers could sell anything to them to make it sound good.
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Re: An Unhappy Marriage.

Post by spell_check on Wed Sep 02, 2015 9:29 pm

Healthy crowds in August?  We'll see about that:
(Minor round matches played in August only)
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Re: An Unhappy Marriage.

Post by Flag No.10 on Tue Sep 08, 2015 9:55 am

It was interesting to overhear a SANFL club President on the weekend say that the AFL clubs had brought nothing to the competition.

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Re: An Unhappy Marriage.

Post by bayman on Tue Sep 08, 2015 9:32 pm

Flag No.9 wrote:It was interesting to overhear a SANFL club President on the weekend say that the AFL clubs had brought nothing to the competition.

I agree & disagree, i agree they've done nothing for the competition, however they've brought in disharmony & disenchantment among the general football public & this is the EXACT reason crowds are down....we need people like this club president to say these things publicly, or do they have to do what they are told to do & say ?
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Re: An Unhappy Marriage.

Post by Gingernuts on Wed Sep 09, 2015 12:21 pm

spell_check wrote:Healthy crowds in August?  We'll see about that:
(Minor round matches played in August only)

As I said in an earlier post on this thread (and many times before on others), to suggest that the AFL reserves sides are THE reason for falling crowds is completely misguided, and in fact I would suggest they are detrimental to efforts to arrest the slide.

To me the reasons are wide and varied, from ticket costs, to a lack of interest from 'post AFL' generations, and many others in between (of which the AFL reserves side are most likely one of).

Again, I think this decline was/is inevitable.

Again, I reiterate that to me the core root of the problem is that the governance of the game of Aussie Rules, particularly in established states, is fundamentally flawed (governing bodies of all levels competing, rather than working together) and needs a major overhaul.
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Re: An Unhappy Marriage.

Post by Big Phil on Wed Sep 09, 2015 12:55 pm

Flag No.9 wrote:It was interesting to overhear a SANFL club President on the weekend say that the AFL clubs had brought nothing to the competition.
Was lucky enough to sit with Doug Thomas at the Magarey Medal - he was VERY strongly against the AFL reserves, pretty much saying the same thing, just in a more Doug Thomas way !!!
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Re: An Unhappy Marriage.

Post by Flag No.10 on Wed Sep 09, 2015 1:02 pm

Gingernuts I would disagree with you about the impact on attendances that the Reserves teams have had, but I don't think anyone could argue that it has compromised the integrity of the competition. And that alone should be reason enough to reverse the decision.
I also think it's unarguable that the forecast rise in attendances have not materialised.

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Re: An Unhappy Marriage.

Post by Ben W on Wed Sep 09, 2015 1:13 pm

Are you able to tell us if the said Presidents club voted for or against the AFL sides into the SANFL?
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Re: An Unhappy Marriage.

Post by Booney on Wed Sep 09, 2015 1:19 pm

Gingernuts wrote:

As I said in an earlier post on this thread (and many times before on others), to suggest that the AFL reserves sides are THE reason for falling crowds is completely misguided, and in fact I would suggest they are detrimental to efforts to arrest the slide.

To me the reasons are wide and varied, from ticket costs, to a lack of interest from 'post AFL' generations, and many others in between (of which the AFL reserves side are most likely one of).

Again, I think this decline was/is inevitable.

Again, I reiterate that to me the core root of the problem is that the governance of the game of Aussie Rules, particularly in established states, is fundamentally flawed (governing bodies of all levels competing, rather than working together) and needs a major overhaul.

This is a very salient point. Pre SA in the AFL days (1990) every kid had a team, every football following kid had an SANFL team at heart. Those born after 1990 may have a passing interest in the club Mum/Dad/brother/sister followed, but ultimately they have been raised on an AFL diet. Now those people are into their 20's they decide where they spend their entertainment dollar, fair to say the SANFL was already well behind the AFL in their minds and there are plenty of others things to do entertainment wise that were not really available in 1990. It's also fair to say more and more people don't care about football at all, many social sets couldn't care less about it. It's not "cool" to be a footy fan, you're seen as the atypical bogan by many people.

Now that those 20 somethings are having kids it's highly unlikely those kids will be interested in the SANFL at all. So while the crowds have clearly been influenced by the AFL sides entering into the competition as they have there has been a massive generational shift from SANFL die hards > little bit of AFL interest > no SANFL interest at all.

It puzzles me somewhat, "I'm not going to show them why the crowds are dropping". "I'm not buying a membership to show them why I'm not a member"....so you're actually contributing to the "problem" not helping resolve it? Hmmmm...thinking adults?
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Re: An Unhappy Marriage.

Post by Gingernuts on Wed Sep 09, 2015 1:21 pm

Flag No.9 wrote:Gingernuts I would disagree with you about the impact on attendances that the Reserves teams have had, but I don't think anyone could argue that it has compromised the integrity of the competition. And that alone should be reason enough to reverse the decision.
I also think it's unarguable that the forecast rise in attendances have not materialised.

I think you misunderstand me - I'm not necessarily disagreeing that the AFL Reserves teams have impacted crowd figures.

I just don't subscribe to the theory that they are the only reason why crowd figures are down.

Hell, the lowest average attendances ever actually came the year before the AFL teams came in, so you could just as easily argue that going by the statistical trend, they actually briefly arrested what was already a natural slide anyway.

I am not arguing for or against the AFL Reserves in this thread, we've been over that debate a bazillion times and it's pretty clear where most posters sit on that these days.

What I am suggesting that to pin them at the only factor is an extremely blinkered approach, and fraught with danger.
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Re: An Unhappy Marriage.

Post by Booney on Wed Sep 09, 2015 1:21 pm

Flag No.9 wrote:Gingernuts I would disagree with you about the impact on attendances that the Reserves teams have had, but I don't think anyone could argue that it has compromised the integrity of the competition. And that alone should be reason enough to reverse the decision.
I also think it's unarguable that the forecast rise in attendances have not materialised.

Only fools brought into the AFC's prediction. Fools.
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Re: An Unhappy Marriage.

Post by Gingernuts on Wed Sep 09, 2015 1:28 pm

Booney wrote:Now that those 20 somethings are having kids it's highly unlikely those kids will be interested in the SANFL at all. So while the crowds have clearly been influenced by the AFL sides entering into the competition as they have there has been a massive generational shift from SANFL die hards > little bit of AFL interest > no SANFL interest at all.

This.

This is main contributing factor as to why the SANFL is in steep decline IMO.

Sadly, the AFL reserves seems to have just provided a convenient scapegoat to the parochial die hards (that's not meant in a derogatory way btw) that can't find it within themselves to put their emotional attachments aside and face this cold hard truth.
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Re: An Unhappy Marriage.

Post by Flag No.10 on Wed Sep 09, 2015 1:30 pm

Gingernuts wrote:
Flag No.9 wrote:Gingernuts I would disagree with you about the impact on attendances that the Reserves teams have had, but I don't think anyone could argue that it has compromised the integrity of the competition. And that alone should be reason enough to reverse the decision.
I also think it's unarguable that the forecast rise in attendances have not materialised.

I think you misunderstand me - I'm not necessarily disagreeing that the AFL Reserves teams have impacted crowd figures.

I just don't subscribe to the theory that they are the only reason why crowd figures are down.

Hell, the lowest average attendances ever actually came the year before the AFL teams came in, so you could just as easily argue that going by the statistical trend, they actually briefly arrested what was already a natural slide anyway.

I am not arguing for or against the AFL Reserves in this thread, we've been over that debate a bazillion times and it's pretty clear where most posters sit on that these days.

What I am suggesting that to pin them at the only factor is an extremely blinkered approach, and fraught with danger.
No I understand that GN, I just believe they are a bigger part of the problem than you do, that's all.

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