AFL teams in the SANFL - Revisited

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AFL teams in the SANFL - Revisited

Post by Lee on Mon Jul 27, 2015 3:19 pm

Sorry, but I think it's time to open up this debate again.

On Sunday we saw a massive win by a powerful Adelaide outfit and a loss by a Magpies team.

Is it working? Is it fair? Would the SANFL be better off with or without them?

Please keep it respectful and bear in mind we have Magpies and Adelaide supporters on the site, so try to be constructive rather than just posting slogans.


Last edited by Lee on Wed Nov 16, 2016 4:37 pm; edited 2 times in total

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Re: AFL teams in the SANFL - Revisited

Post by Booney on Mon Jul 27, 2015 3:28 pm

From the NAFC website :

"I am sitting at the game and think it is so sad watching so many kids at a SANFL game wearing crows guernseys which is not good for the SANFL competition going forward is the club reconsidering voting the crows and power out of the SANFL" - Darryl

"Hi Darryl, even though the conditions of entry are reviewed annually, I’m not sure the clubs will get another vote any time soon on that. I suggest the opportunity for that to occur will come about if the AFL set up an AFL Reserves competition nationally." - Football Operations.

https://nafc.com.au/virtualrunner

*EDIT*

I can sense the remorse in your post, bringing this issue up....sorry? Laughing You love it, you love having a crack at the arseholes. Denial would be futile.
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Re: AFL teams in the SANFL - Revisited

Post by Lee on Mon Jul 27, 2015 3:57 pm

A bit unfair, Booney. I wasn't the only one to come away from the game at City Mazda shellshocked by what I'd seen.

I was one of those who was in favour of it originally, as I thought it would rejuvenate the competition, but I was wrong. Crowds have dropped, not increased, publicity the same, the SANFL are paying a lot of money to televise mainly the AFL Reserves sides and so many SANFL regulars are giving it away.

I saw the resources an AFL team had on tap yesterday and the SANFL clubs can only dream of that.

It's not about West. We've been lucky and have beaten Adelaide the previous 3 times we've played them, as they fielded several top-up players. It's about the integrity of the competition being at the whim of AFL injuries, etc.

As for 'arseholes', even though you've decided denial would be futile, I have apologised for calling them that, to be fair.

Whatever you might think my motives are, I'm genuinely concerned for my club and the future of the SANFL and there's no need to make it personal. I respect your opinion and your loyalty to your club.

We can't just pretend it's not an issue for discussion, IMO.


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Re: AFL teams in the SANFL - Revisited

Post by Booney on Mon Jul 27, 2015 4:45 pm

Sure it's an issue for discussion, to what end?

I'm not going to deny (almost) anything that anyone says about the AFL involvement in the SANFL. It's irrefutable, crowds, media coverage (questionable with FTA on commercial network), interest and ultimately integrity, all down, or worse, gone. I won't deny any of this.

To what end though this discussion? Do you think endless round-and-round forum chit chat will have things "back to the good ol' days"? Nope.

Do you think the SANFL and it's clubs have the means AND fortitude to expel the two SA based AFL clubs from the competition? Means, I'm sure they do. Fortitude? I'm sure they don't.

Is there even a remote possibility that the SANFL and it's clubs say to Adelaide and Port, "Look guys, it hasn't worked out, we think ti best you move on to somewhere else."

Where else? The ammo's, the VFL, the WAFL, the NEAFL?

Can you imagine the diabolical situation that would arise if the SANFL waved the AFL's sides goodbye into the wilderness, the AFL would be less than happy (Who cares? you might add), Channel 7 wouldn't be interested in the "product" anymore, the ABC wouldn't want it back (highly unlikely given they too were shafted) and the SANFL would be an 8 team competition with the countries biggest bank book shut, closed.....

Sure, it will have back it's integrity. No question. Would it be an even playing field? I don't think so, it's all relative. The struggling clubs would struggle on less, the strong would struggle on less. Would you get blokes playing reserves for free? It's likely clubs wouldn't afford to pay players in reserves....off to the ammos.

I fear, with good reason, it stays this way or the SANFL dies a not so slow but painful death.

There's the kicker....exist as is or take a punt that it all goes to ****. Yes, deeper in the **** than it is now...
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Re: AFL teams in the SANFL - Revisited

Post by Lee on Mon Jul 27, 2015 5:13 pm

Lots of fair points in that, Booney.

I wouldn't rule out the possibility of the clubs saying goodbye to the AFL teams later on as readily as some, but I think it is more likely we might see some changes to the regulations around the inclusion, which can be done at anytime.

The one point you make which is really pertinent is that the AFl wouldn't like it and they wield a very big stick, which they won't hesitate to use against the SANFL.  On the other hand, the AFL teams here have very few realistic options either.  

Somehow I don't think Adelaide v Goody Saints would help them or the amateur competition much, which leaves the only alternative as a very expensive bid to join the VFL and that might not be accepted.  An AFL Reserves competition is the only other alternative and I don't see Adelaide crowds flocking to watch their Reserves team in that.

The problem is one of balance, fielding a side which is generally on a par with the existing teams.  That's difficult, if not impossible, to achieve consistently, but would require a good degree of goodwill between all parties to have any chance.

The reason I posted this was that I've attended the SANFL since I was about 7 years old and I've never left a game with such a feeling of unreality as I had yesterday.  So many other people expressed the same feeling to me.

You had to be there to understand, maybe.

What we have now is the reality and we have to beat whoever we play against and that's fair enough, but I'm looking forward more to next week's game against Sturt. That's just personal feeling, as the reality is you have to face whatever challenge is in front of you, but I suspect many have that feeling and I'll be interested to

I just hope the current system can be reviewed positively after two seasons experience, so that it can be improved for all parties involved.

If that can't be done, the SANFL might have to risk dying standing up for itself, rather than die on its knees.

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Re: AFL teams in the SANFL - Revisited

Post by CB10 on Mon Jul 27, 2015 5:53 pm

Well I'm a follower of both the SANFL and AFL and I really am of the belief they have to go.
The projected increases have not eventuated and the true rank and file SANFL followers are dropping off.

That's not the reason I want them out.
It is simply about fairness and integrity of the comp.
The few thousand people who go to the SANFL all want a proper competition.
You can't have part timers playing professionals and hope that the viewing spectators are going to concede some sort of allowance for the predicament.
It's unfair and everyone knows it. Hell, even the two AFL clubs know it but they must look after themselves first and foremost.
So should the SANFL clubs!
Crowds for when SANFL traditional clubs play are what they are but there is a core group who will always go.
Much like a core group of supporters who follow the amateur league, they love their club.

So what if the standard drops eventually?
The clubs will have to adjust accordingly and pay accordingly.
I'll still go to the games because I go to watch my club play in that comp.
Television this year has not been a great advertisement for the SANFL  because it's all about the AFL state teams.

True the SANFL is in a death spiral but through planning they do have a revenue stream and land sales.
What they might not have is supporters of traditional clubs if this situation isn't looked at closely.
I fear if it stays this way the SANFL will die a slow death.

With the AFL teams out the picture we will find an equilibrium point which we just have to live with.
Sure the SANFL may be less relevant but it will at least be relevant!
Right now this whole set up is truly farcical and will only become more so when the inevitable happens and an AFL state team wins the SANFL flag.
Perhaps it will take that to truly change things,the absurdity will be there for all to see!

Who cares how deep the **** is? Once your in it, your in it! And it will take fortitude to wade out of it.

The AFL is the pinnacle of football and the pay rates, club facilities and quality players reflect that.
That is the elite competition and is recognised as such. Those that have graduated to that league need to be solely in that league to reflect that.
The SANFL is now a second tier comp involving semi professional players and coaches.
It is not a professional league and it's competition should reflect that also.
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Re: AFL teams in the SANFL - Revisited

Post by Southee on Mon Jul 27, 2015 6:11 pm

It's a joke and farcical but we our club did not vote for it ! They actually did a very strange thing that others clubs did not ... They asked their members ( including me ) The outcome was a NO vote !

I was ridiculed for being paranoid and a " living the the past " supporter by a few here but I could see the writing on the wall.

Maybe it's time for the other clubs to ask there members opinions otherwise "just live with it" as it will not change and the SANFL will die a slow death !!!

Port and Crows will rule and prosper .... That's all they care about and really all that matters Rolling Eyes
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Re: AFL teams in the SANFL - Revisited

Post by bayman on Mon Jul 27, 2015 9:36 pm

until a white knight comes along to give 8 clubs $100,000.00 per year, it won't change, they'll tweak things to appease the clubs but it basically wont change, i was against it from the start, still am & while i still go & watch my team it isn't quite the same, if the AFL wanted football at all levels to be ''pure'' there would be an AFL reserves competition, as for the standard of the ''competition'' well it isn't too bad considering another 80 players (some from this state) are in the AFL because of the two newest franchises, that white knight will be me if i get Oz Lotto tomorrow night however as we know it is almost impossible to win the major prize, seeing they are in i don't understand why Port wear the magpies' jumper anymore, they should be wearing a Power jumper so the players get used to not only playing with each other, learning structures etc as that is the jumper of one club as they are now (in the AFL) & they are all trying to get into the A grade team that wear that jumper.
Sadly i think (not this site, just me) that some people at SANFL headquarters bend over backwards to help the AFL anyway it can even to the detriment of the SANFL in the hope of getting a better & more high profile job at the AFL, one in particular i have in mind, when in another powerful position he sold nearly everything that wasn't nailed down & seemed to be eager for the inclusion of the two franchises too happen from day one
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Re: AFL teams in the SANFL - Revisited

Post by Lee on Mon Jul 27, 2015 9:44 pm

Good posts.

I should point out that Port don't pay a fee, so each club receives $50,000. Port maintain that they no longer get a distribution from the SANFL, so shouldn't have to pay a fee.

I disagree, but that's just my opinion.

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Re: AFL teams in the SANFL - Revisited

Post by bayman on Mon Jul 27, 2015 9:47 pm

Lee wrote:Good posts.

I should point out that Port don't pay a fee, so each club receives $50,00Port maintain thst they no longer get a distribution from the SANFL, so shouldn't have to pay a fee.

I disagree, but that's just my opinion.

really ? Then the SANFL clubs should give them an ultimatum, being that both franchises are supposed to be in the SANFL competition under the same conditions
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Re: AFL teams in the SANFL - Revisited

Post by Chambo Off To Work We Go on Mon Jul 27, 2015 10:37 pm

I cannot warm to a competition where the rules are the same for everybody.

A Double Blue win over Port was always most highly regarded the best scalp given their success over the years. However, I now find myself largely ambivalent to it.

These 2 afl sides have diluted the interest and integrity in the sanfl rather than the converse argument being that they have provoked greater interest. The attendance statistics support the diminishing interest theory.

I still maintain it was an ill-conceived gamble introducing afl reserves teams. And I am with Bayman, I can't see why Port still preserve this Magpie connection.
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Re: AFL teams in the SANFL - Revisited

Post by Southee on Mon Jul 27, 2015 10:44 pm

They wear the magpie jumper as they are the Port Adelaide magpies .... It's a tradition since 1870 !!

......(insert sarcasm here )
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Re: AFL teams in the SANFL - Revisited

Post by Booney on Tue Jul 28, 2015 8:07 am

Chambo Off To Work We Go wrote:I cannot warm to a competition where the rules are the same for everybody.

A Double Blue win over Port was always most highly regarded the best scalp given their success over the years. However, I now find myself largely ambivalent to it.

These 2 afl sides have diluted the interest and integrity in the sanfl rather than the converse argument being that they have provoked greater interest. The attendance statistics support the diminishing interest theory.

I still maintain it was an ill-conceived gamble introducing afl reserves teams. And I am with Bayman, I can't see why Port still preserve this Magpie connection.

You don't need to. It doesn't involve you. Does it?
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Re: AFL teams in the SANFL - Revisited

Post by Mannyredleg on Tue Jul 28, 2015 8:53 am

So do we meet the problem half way and revisit the scenario where we keep the AFL reserves in our competition but treat all their games as "byes" so it doesn't affect our premiership ladder.
We can take these games as seriously as they do with respect to player management and trialing tactics etc.

The reserves take no part in our finals and since we now finish the season earlier than previously their players will still be match fit for an AFL recall during their AFL finals.

Integrity restored?
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Re: AFL teams in the SANFL - Revisited

Post by Booney on Tue Jul 28, 2015 9:04 am

Simply would not work. You think SANFL clubs will offer up their players for trial matches in the middle of the year?

( Go on, call them trial matches now )
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Re: AFL teams in the SANFL - Revisited

Post by Mannyredleg on Tue Jul 28, 2015 9:09 am

Booney wrote:Simply would not work. You think SANFL clubs will offer up their players for trial matches in the middle of the year?

( Go on, call them trial matches now )

Of course not. I'm not suggesting we do anything different to the AFL and that is use these games to rest players who dont need to be risked for no premiership points and try players and tactics you normally wouldn't during the season.

The AFL reserves still get a hit out which is all they want anyway.

What's wrong with that?
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Re: AFL teams in the SANFL - Revisited

Post by Chambo Off To Work We Go on Tue Jul 28, 2015 9:14 am

Booney wrote:
Chambo Off To Work We Go wrote:I cannot warm to a competition where the rules are the same for everybody.

A Double Blue win over Port was always most highly regarded the best scalp given their success over the years. However, I now find myself largely ambivalent to it.

These 2 afl sides have diluted the interest and integrity in the sanfl rather than the converse argument being that they have provoked greater interest. The attendance statistics support the diminishing interest theory.

I still maintain it was an ill-conceived gamble introducing afl reserves teams. And I am with Bayman, I can't see why Port still preserve this Magpie connection.

You don't need to. It doesn't involve you. Does it?

An answer consistent with Port are the 'centre of the universe' theory. Of course it involves every sanfl supporter with an interest in how it is run.
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Re: AFL teams in the SANFL - Revisited

Post by Booney on Tue Jul 28, 2015 9:24 am

Why, what difference does it make to you and the rest of the SANFL? Port Adelaide in the SANFL is the Magpies, is it not?

Do we care that you and Norwood sing the same song? Nope, it's none of my business.
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Re: AFL teams in the SANFL - Revisited

Post by Booney on Tue Jul 28, 2015 9:27 am

Mannyredleg wrote:
Booney wrote:Simply would not work. You think SANFL clubs will offer up their players for trial matches in the middle of the year?

( Go on, call them trial matches now )

Of course not. I'm not suggesting we do anything different to the AFL and that is use these games to rest players who dont need to be risked for no premiership points and try players and tactics you normally wouldn't during the season.

The AFL reserves still get a hit out which is all they want anyway.

What's wrong with that?

You know this for a fact? If this is the case, why was it that Port Adelaide played off for the premiership in the SANFL last year? Pretty odd if they "only want a hit out", isn't it? Playing and winning games, qualifying for finals, winning finals....seems like you need to be rather committed to do that.
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Re: AFL teams in the SANFL - Revisited

Post by RODH2 on Tue Jul 28, 2015 9:31 am

Port, Magpies, Power, Whatever.
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Re: AFL teams in the SANFL - Revisited

Post by Lee on Tue Jul 28, 2015 9:36 am

I don't have a problem with Port maintaining the Magpies name for their SANFL side. Everyone knows the setup, that it's a Power Reserves side.

I also don't think 'trial' games would work.

The problem is not just with the team put on the park, it's the amount of back-up resources available that just aren't possible for SANFL teams with a part-time coach and a couple of assistants after work and on Saturdays.

It may be that with no change you just take the luck of the draw whether you're playing against an 18 listed players side or a sub-standard side.

I certainly think the idea of a marque player needs to be looked at. Bad enough on Sunday watching Adelaide, without seeing Ian Callinan as a non-listed player, or Steven Summerton winning Port's B & F as a 'top-up' player.

What's the answer? Don't know, but it's the major problem facing the SANFL right now.

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Re: AFL teams in the SANFL - Revisited

Post by Flag No.10 on Tue Jul 28, 2015 9:49 am

Booney you don't seem to want people to discuss the AFL in the SANFL issue, or Port's Magpie connection. I would have thought this is what should happen on a footy forum. The fact that discussion might not change anything is irrelevant. We can't change the result of games either, should we stop discussing them?

I believe that the more this is discussed, the more it will become apparent to the SANFL clubs that many of their members want the AFL clubs out of the competition. And I think as the clubs work out that the $50,000 probably only just covers (if at all) the revenue lost from decreased attendances and fewer games, they will be emboldened to do something about it.

The last straw, I believe, will come when the AFL pressures the SANFL to lower the salary cap. When the SANFL clubs are thereby asked to compete with AFL teams on an even less even playing field, I think (and hope) they'll say enough is enough.

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Re: AFL teams in the SANFL - Revisited

Post by Booney on Tue Jul 28, 2015 9:51 am

So you think, right at this moment, the SANFL is watching this site and others to garner the public's view of the current situation and are oblivious to the negativity currently surrounding the situation?
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Re: AFL teams in the SANFL - Revisited

Post by Scrunch on Tue Jul 28, 2015 10:07 am

Flag No.9 wrote:Booney you don't seem to want people to discuss the AFL in the SANFL issue, or Port's Magpie connection. I would have thought this is what should happen on a footy forum. The fact that discussion might not change anything is irrelevant. We can't change the result of games either, should we stop discussing them?

I believe that the more this is discussed, the more it will become apparent to the SANFL clubs that many of their members want the AFL clubs out of the competition. And I think as the clubs work out that the $50,000 probably only just covers (if at all) the revenue lost from decreased attendances and fewer games, they will be emboldened to do something about it.

The last straw, I believe, will come when the AFL pressures the SANFL to lower the salary cap. When the SANFL clubs are thereby asked to compete with AFL teams on an even less even playing field, I think (and hope) they'll say enough is enough.

The last straw from what I hear might come through a national AFL reserves competition, which whilst removing the AFL listed players from the SANFL, will also take most of the best younger league players from our clubs. Either way you look at it, the future looks pretty bleak for our comp.

Perhaps if there wasn't such a vast variable between the projected value of West Lakes and the actual amount it was sold for we'd have the money needed to invest to make the SANFL the strongest 2nd tier comp in the country.
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Re: AFL teams in the SANFL - Revisited

Post by sponge on Tue Jul 28, 2015 10:17 am

Booney wrote:So you think, right at this moment, the SANFL is watching this site and others to garner the public's view of the current situation and are oblivious to the negativity currently surrounding the situation?

I think the business world calls it "Marketing Research" Very Happy Very Happy
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