ESPN Cricinfo's World Eleven

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Re: ESPN Cricinfo's World Eleven

Post by FOOTYfollower on Thu Nov 29, 2012 8:58 am

Not taking into account total (Test) career stats, but sheer batting ability - how would Barry Richards rate compared to other leading batsmen over the last 140 years?

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Re: ESPN Cricinfo's World Eleven

Post by Chambo Off To Work We Go on Thu Nov 29, 2012 9:42 am

Barry Richards was selected in the second team.
So I guess you could say he was in the mix for the opening spots.
I thought I read he only played a handful of tests. Probably one of cricket's great injustices.
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Re: ESPN Cricinfo's World Eleven

Post by Gingernuts on Thu Nov 29, 2012 10:09 am

robranisgod wrote: I didn't think his keeping was ever anything special. Certainly his sloppiness behind the stumps cost Australia more than one test. The test against India 5 years ago in Adelaide 5 years ago is one the comes to mind where he missed a couple of regulation catches and Australia failed on the last day to dismiss India. He is about the cleanest hitter of the ball that I have ever seen, but I can't agree with you about his keeping, to me it was never any more than average.

His batting saved Australia on many occasions, and put Australia in commanding positions in countless tests. Yes his keeping let him down on occasions, particularly late in his career, but he is way ahead on net result IMO.
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Re: ESPN Cricinfo's World Eleven

Post by Scrappy on Thu Nov 29, 2012 10:13 am

FOOTYfollower wrote:Not taking into account total (Test) career stats, but sheer batting ability - how would Barry Richards rate compared to other leading batsmen over the last 140 years?


Barry Richards
''When no one else was a round , I would practice for hours on my own, from what Ive read something common in the childhood of cricketers, hurling a ball against a wall and batting against the rebound
My net was our garage, my bat was just 12 inches long
In retrospect this must have been extremely good conditioning for the eye and the reflexes
I used a golf ball which I threw it at the wall used really to fly at me on the bounce."

Like The Don, The Barry had similar doctrines as a kid

1970
Just how good Barry Richards would have been a a Test Cricketer is purely speculative
In 1 superb Test Series he made 508 runs @ 72.57 against Bill Lawrys Australians in South Africa
A series where an Australian cricketer claimed pre-series that Ian Chappell was the best batsman in the world
By the end of that series Barry Richards and Graham Pollock perhaps deserved that title as the planets best batsman

Was that 72.57 average inflated ?
Australian had ventured to India on the slow spinfested pitches , and then toured South Africa
It has been written that almost the entire Australian Squad was ill , tired and lethargic from the tour of India
The Australians were simply not in any condition at the start of the series
South Africa demoralised the Aussies from the start, and trounced them
For their part, the Aussies fielding was deplorable , dropping catch after catch during the series
I listened to a fair proportion of that series on the radio as a kid and would hear how good this Barry Richards was
After this series Barry Richards was never to play Test Cricket again , after a fantastic embryonic start

1966
A South African Eleven played the touring Australians on the tour of 1966-1967
Richards had advanced down the pitch and hit off spinner Tom Vievers to the extra cover boundary , and reached his first first class century b4 being bowled by Garth Mckenzie for 107
This is what Richie Benaud had to say about Barry Richards 107 run innings
'' Eleven Australian cricketers saw a new Test star born yesterday , when 21 year old Barry Richards carved a scintillating 107 off them ...
He exhibited a cast iron defence and glorious attacking strokes to all parts of the field in this two and a half hour stay."'

1970-1971
There was a consolation to Barry not adding to his 4 game Test Career
That was he came to play for South Australia in the 1970-1971 season
His love affair with Australian bowlers continued for his one off Sheffield Shield season
Barry scored a phenomenal 1538 runs @109.85 for the season, including THAT innings of 356 against West Australia in an attack that included DK Lillie
I was a teenager who caught the bus to Adelaide oval to see Barry Richards play that season, as much as I liked Ian Chappell, Barry became my favorite player that season
By averaging 100+ in a season of Australian cricket proved to the world that his 72.57 Test average was no fluke

My opinion is from what I saw , based on 1 seasons batting , that he was the best opening batsman Ive ever seen
The best Test opener of all time , I cant answer that


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Re: ESPN Cricinfo's World Eleven

Post by robranisgod on Thu Nov 29, 2012 10:15 am

Gingernuts wrote:
robranisgod wrote: I didn't think his keeping was ever anything special. Certainly his sloppiness behind the stumps cost Australia more than one test. The test against India 5 years ago in Adelaide 5 years ago is one the comes to mind where he missed a couple of regulation catches and Australia failed on the last day to dismiss India. He is about the cleanest hitter of the ball that I have ever seen, but I can't agree with you about his keeping, to me it was never any more than average.

His batting saved Australia on many occasions, and put Australia in commanding positions in countless tests. Yes his keeping let him down on occasions, particularly late in his career, but he is way ahead on net result IMO.

No doubt of that.
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Re: ESPN Cricinfo's World Eleven

Post by robranisgod on Fri Nov 30, 2012 2:50 pm

One thing that puzzles me a bit is that we just don't seem to rate Jacques Kallis when it comes to this sort of selection. He is clearly one of the two greatest batting allrounders, yet he is never mentioned in these sorts of teams. And I am not criticising any selectors either. I wouldn't have chosen him in my first or second XIs either. I wonder why we underrate him. Anyone got any ideas?
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Re: ESPN Cricinfo's World Eleven

Post by Scrappy on Fri Nov 30, 2012 8:22 pm

Perhaps Jaques is not exciting enough ?
He rarely tears the opposition apart with his batting
His bowling is at times can be explosive , but generally medium fast


But he deserves more recognition for his outstanding career
Is possibly the second best batting allrounder Ive seen , after Sir Garfield Sobers
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Re: ESPN Cricinfo's World Eleven

Post by FOOTYfollower on Fri Nov 30, 2012 8:45 pm

How do his statistics compare to Sobers'?
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Re: ESPN Cricinfo's World Eleven

Post by Scrappy on Fri Nov 30, 2012 10:53 pm

Sir Garfield Sobers

Batting
8032 runs
57.78 ave
26 hundreds
strike rate ?

Bowling
235 wickets
34.03 average
91.91 strike rate
2.22 economy

Jaques Kallis

Batting
12858 runs
57.14 average
44 hundreds
45.93 strike rate

Bowling
281 wickets
32.55 average
68.95 strike rate
2.83 economy

Stats can be deceptive at times
The reason being Sobers was more of a match winner , and often could murder bowling attacks , and set up wins with the bat
His bowling was incredibly versatile
He could open the bowling, bowl as a change bowler, or become a spin bowler

Looking at those stats you could think Kallis was the better cricketer
Kallis, as Robranisgod has posted, should be at least talked about when it comes to the best of batting allrounders off all time

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Re: ESPN Cricinfo's World Eleven

Post by robranisgod on Sat Dec 01, 2012 12:10 am

I can't think of any other batting allrounders who get close to Sobers and Kallis. Just about every other great allrounder has been primarily a bowler. Can anyone think of the next best batting allrounder. To me players like Steve Waugh and Bob Simpson were batsmen who could bowl but not quite allrounders. I am excluding the wicketkeeper/batsman from this discussion.
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Re: ESPN Cricinfo's World Eleven

Post by Scrappy on Sat Dec 01, 2012 7:27 am

The only way to get close to Sobers or Kallis would be to think of excellent batsmen who bowled more than occasionally
Some examples


Doug Walters
5357 runs @48.26
49 wickets @29.08

Greg Chappell
7110 runs @53.86
47 wickets @ 40.70

Bob Simpson
4869 runs @46.81
71 wickets @42.26

Allan Border
11174 runs @50.56
39 wickets @39.10

Steve Waugh
10927 runs @51.06
92 wickets @37.44

Bob Cowper
2061 runs @46.84
36 wickets @31.63

All these players played in the top order as batsman , finished with good batting averages , and were more than useful bowlers

Bob Cowper
Is rarely mentioned as a great
Bob Cowper , a triple centurion in Test Cricket, was a very good left handed Victorian batsman
The added bonus was he was a good off break bowler
Unfortunately for Australian cricket , he retired in his late twenties for employment reasons


Doug Walters
Douggie Walters is mostly remembered for his exciting batting
Has been mentioned as a change bowler , who had the ability to be a partnership breaker
Doug ends up with a bowling average of less than 30, so his bowling may deserve more credit
He bowled medium pacers, probably about 125 kms



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Re: ESPN Cricinfo's World Eleven

Post by Scrappy on Sat Dec 01, 2012 7:48 am

robranisgod wrote:I can't think of any other batting allrounders who get close to Sobers and Kallis. Just about every other great allrounder has been primarily a bowler. Can anyone think of the next best batting allrounder. To me players like Steve Waugh and Bob Simpson were batsmen who could bowl but not quite allrounders. I am excluding the wicketkeeper/batsman from this discussion.

You were too young to remember this player

Walter Hammond

Batting
7249 runs
58.45 average
22 hundreds
336 not out highest score

Bowling
83 wickets
37.80 average
96.01 strike rate
2.36 economy

From what Ive read , Walter is considered the best or near best English batsman of all time
Arguably Jack Hobbs is the best with Walter Hammond
His bowling average is highish , but he did bowl a lot of his career against Australian batsman , including Sir Donald Bradman
Walter ended up scoring 167 first class hundreds , which is about the 3rd highest amount of tons by any player
It is said no one has played better offside shots than Walter Hammond
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Re: ESPN Cricinfo's World Eleven

Post by robranisgod on Sat Dec 01, 2012 8:00 am

Scrappy wrote:
robranisgod wrote:I can't think of any other batting allrounders who get close to Sobers and Kallis. Just about every other great allrounder has been primarily a bowler. Can anyone think of the next best batting allrounder. To me players like Steve Waugh and Bob Simpson were batsmen who could bowl but not quite allrounders. I am excluding the wicketkeeper/batsman from this discussion.

You were too young to remember this player

Walter Hammond

Batting
7249 runs
58.45 average
22 hundreds
336 not out highest score

Bowling
83 wickets
37.80 average
96.01 strike rate
2.36 economy

From what Ive read , Walter is considered the best or near best English batsman of all time
Arguably Jack Hobbs is the best with Walter Hammond
His bowling average is highish , but he did bowl a lot of his career against Australian batsman , including Sir Donald Bradman
Walter ended up scoring 167 first class hundreds , which is about the 3rd highest amount of tons by any player
It is said no one has played better offside shots than Walter Hammond

Hammond has been chosen in the second XI probably in front of Kallis. Once again I think of Hammond as a better player than Kallis, even though figures don't suggest it.

I agree that Hobbs and Hammond are probably considered England's greatest ever players although I think that Sutcliffe may have had a better batting average and a little surprisingly perhaps Ken Barrington's figures would be rather close too. Once again style probably comes into most of our judgements.
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Re: ESPN Cricinfo's World Eleven

Post by Scrappy on Sat Dec 01, 2012 8:09 am

This is Jeff Cheshires Top 10 allrounders list
The list was complied in January , 2012

1 Gary Sobers
2 Jaques Kallis
3 Imran Khan
4 Keith Miller
5 Richard Hadlee
6 Ian Botham
7 Shaun Pollock
8 Kapil Dev
9 Tony Greig
10 Andrew Flintoff

This guy agrees with myself and Robranisgod, and given Jaques Kallis a lofty rating
Interestingly he has not included Wasim Akram in his top 10 allrounders though
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Re: ESPN Cricinfo's World Eleven

Post by Scrappy on Sat Dec 01, 2012 8:24 am

What about this allrounder
Mike Proctor

Batting
226 runs @25.11
53.42 strike rate

Bowling
41 wickets @15.02
36.92 strike rate
2.44 economy rate

I wonder how good this South African allrounder may have been ?
Look at those astonishing bowling stats, albiet in an enforced very brief Test career
Mike had a most unusual bowling action , a slight similarity to Max Walkers , but bowled with a good deal more pace

When I think of how good Barry Richards and Mike Proctor could have been as Test Cricketers, I think the answer is a part hide
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Re: ESPN Cricinfo's World Eleven

Post by FOOTYfollower on Sat Dec 01, 2012 9:12 am

Tony Greig before Flintoff? Intersting. Perhaps because I didn't see much of Greig and the only real footage I've seen is him being hit for 5 boundaries in an over by David Hookes. No doubt he was decent, I guess I probably just don't know enough about his career.

I wonder where Chris Cairns might rank? Perhaps 11-20 somewhere.
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Re: ESPN Cricinfo's World Eleven

Post by Scrappy on Sat Dec 01, 2012 1:08 pm

FOOTYfollower wrote:Tony Greig before Flintoff? Intersting. Perhaps because I didn't see much of Greig and the only real footage I've seen is him being hit for 5 boundaries in an over by David Hookes. No doubt he was decent, I guess I probably just don't know enough about his career.

I wonder where Chris Cairns might rank? Perhaps 11-20 somewhere.

Im going for Freddy Flintoff as the better 'allrounder'
Batsman, Bowler, Boxer


Andrew Freddy Flintoff has Just become a Heavyweight Boxer , winning his debut fight against Richard Dawson on points
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Re: ESPN Cricinfo's World Eleven

Post by Scrappy on Mon Dec 03, 2012 11:14 pm

Scrappy wrote:Perhaps Jaques is not exciting enough ?
He rarely tears the opposition apart with his batting
His bowling is at times can be explosive , but generally medium fast


But he deserves more recognition for his outstanding career
Is possibly the second best batting allrounder Ive seen , after Sir Garfield Sobers

Ahem Rolling Eyes
The fastest 50 in Test Cricket is by Jaques Kallis pale
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Re: ESPN Cricinfo's World Eleven

Post by Chambo Off To Work We Go on Tue Dec 04, 2012 5:59 pm

Well Scrappy occasionally we get one wrong. That is allowed from time to time. Razz
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Re: ESPN Cricinfo's World Eleven

Post by burgerking on Thu Dec 06, 2012 2:22 pm

the bowler and allrounder would be

DK Lillee
Joel Garner
Richard Hadlee (almost considered an allrounder)
Warne

and throw in Imram Khan (greatest allrounder by an absolute mile)
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Re: ESPN Cricinfo's World Eleven

Post by Chambo Off To Work We Go on Mon Dec 10, 2012 10:38 pm

Scrappy wrote:This is Jeff Cheshires Top 10 allrounders list
The list was complied in January , 2012

1 Gary Sobers
2 Jaques Kallis
3 Imran Khan
4 Keith Miller
5 Richard Hadlee
6 Ian Botham
7 Shaun Pollock
8 Kapil Dev
9 Tony Greig
10 Andrew Flintoff

This guy agrees with myself and Robranisgod, and given Jaques Kallis a lofty rating
Interestingly he has not included Wasim Akram in his top 10 allrounders though

Would Hadlee be considered as a true all rounder?
I wouldn't have him in this list.
Akram probably has a place in this list before Hadlee and Greig in my view.
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Re: ESPN Cricinfo's World Eleven

Post by Scrappy on Tue Dec 11, 2012 12:08 pm

Don Bradmans best team 1945-1975
Please note the team he selected was made in 1975


Simpson
Morris
Bradman
Harvey
I Chappell
G Chappell
Miller
Benaud
Davidson
Lindwall
Tallon
Hassett 12th man

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Re: ESPN Cricinfo's World Eleven

Post by robranisgod on Tue Dec 11, 2012 1:32 pm

Scrappy wrote:Don Bradmans best team 1945-1975
Please note the team he selected was made in 1975


Simpson
Morris
Bradman
Harvey
I Chappell
G Chappell
Miller
Benaud
Davidson
Lindwall
Tallon
Hassett 12th man


Not a bad batting line up. Tallon made a test 90 and he is number 11. As said before Lindwall was just about an all rounder and he is batting 10.

I am glad that Bradman chose Simpson instead of Lawry, it has been a source of annoyance to me that certain judges have elevated Lawry above Simpson, Simpson was the better player.


Last edited by robranisgod on Tue Dec 11, 2012 5:39 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Re: ESPN Cricinfo's World Eleven

Post by Lee on Tue Dec 11, 2012 2:10 pm

Agree, rig.

Good to see Davidson in that team - a much under-rated allrounder, IMO.
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Re: ESPN Cricinfo's World Eleven

Post by Scrappy on Thu Feb 07, 2013 4:32 pm

Fred Truemans list of best fast bowlers
This was done after he retired up to 1990

1 Lillie
2 Holding
3 Marshall
4 Garner
5 Roberts
6 Snow
7 Thomson
8 Willis

In 1960 they had the speed equipment testing who the quickest was
The results
93 mph Hall
92 mph Trueman
80s mph Staham and Loader
70s mph Davidson

Fred , as you would expect , has mentioned he was 33 years old
He also added if he was tested when he was aged mid twenties , he would have been over 100 mph !

Just for the record
Harold Larwood was clocked at 96 mph , by an unknown technology

Godfrey Evans the English keeper has stated that Frank Typhoon Tyson was quicker than Fred Trueman
Freds response was that Frank was quicker for a about 3 years but not over a period of time
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Re: ESPN Cricinfo's World Eleven

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